"I think there is a balance in athletics. In my early years I was ultra-competitive with Final 4 tournaments and boys elite and girls elite teams and so forth. I think I did a disservice to the young kids I was coaching. Not that competitive and keeping score wasn’t important but it took the focus of skill building and sport for life. Now I want kids to love the game for the game and want to play the game well in to their adult years like I do. I never played school sports as I wasn’t of the body type back in elementary school so I was always cut or left off teams. Now I play volleyball, ultimate, hockey, basketball in recreation leagues and have a blast playing. But what if I had been encouraged back when I was younger.
 
I would take Glenn’s question even further and ask why do we need to in high school as well? Why do we need to cut athletes in high school. I think this is fine at the 10-11-12 level but the grade 8-9 should be everyone included, skill building, and the enjoyment of the game.
 
I never have kids not making teams in high school because we play coed and are not ultra-competitive. I have the same  number making high school teams. The athletes will rise to the top. It is all the rest that I am concerned about.
 
So YES keep score that is part of life there is a winner and a loser and that’s ok for kids to understand. I think we have rules in place if the score gets out of hand. In the coed league we even mix up the teams if there is a huge discrepancy and the kids learn to get along with other kids from other schools.
 
We have no-cut, we do intramurals and extramurals, everyone is involved and we build on skills and fun. We still do the skills competition at our playdays something I notice doesn’t happen much anymore in the boys or girls leagues. We even give out volleyballs and basketballs as prizes so the kid now has a ball to play at home with.
 
I got tired of the ultracompetitive nature that SEAS had become. We often talk at the coed level about how low key things are and yet how much fun the kids are having and the skills are improving. Coaches have taken the game to new heights thinking better, more competitive, but this only caters to the elite athletes or those will skill to compete. The rest are left at home."

-Steve

 "I agree with what Steve has written. 

Competition is part of life, and everybody should be given the opportunity to have that experience. I consider my son's bantam hockey, playing house instead of rep level, and there is still competition, just at different levels. I would not want him to be in the AAA because of the huge time commitment for practices and games each week, and the continual pressure taking the fun out of the game. Any child can play at the C level, provided there are enough coaches. The kids all seem to enjoy playing the sport, and the skills they develop playing the game will last a lifetime. 

This is like Elementary sports, where every student should be given the opportunity to join a sport activity. It is not necessary that the student play at the A-team level; we have B-team levels in basketball, recreational play in badminton, mini meets in track and field, etc. The skills they learn will hopefully last a lifetime. Optimistically, a PE teacher should be able to accomplish that same task during regular physical education classes.

Considering Steve's point about the skills competition during playdays: I feel it is a time issue, that coaches don't seem to want to add extra time to an already long event. I know there are coaches out there who don't mind adding the extra time, but I think they are in the minority. They are the ones who gravitate to highschool coaching. 
 
Perchance Glenn might want to pursue a stratified data sample to get a better idea of what mindset exists for the different coaches when it comes to commiting to coaching. The categories could be coaches who commit for the reason that their child participates on the team; coaches who commit for their students participating on the team; coaches who commit for the benefit of their individual schools; coaches who commit solely due to the passion they hold for the sport; I wonder what the different responses would be? Having that background knowledge would definitely help before we considered tinkering with sports culture and tradition by removing the scorekeeping. Personally, I wouldn't mind removing the scorekeeping (spoken as a coach whose team once garnered 2 points at a District Track Meet), but I can't see it happening due to the fact that that is the way things have always been done; the culture is strong.
 
Maybe we should all play coed sports. Badminton is coed. The badminton players are low key, and don't seem to stress out about how the game is going. They are always having fun (except when there is not enough time to play.) We keep score in badminton games so we will know at what time to switch partners to play out the remainder of the ten minutes alloted per game. 

Thank-you for taking the time to read the rambling thoughts of a badminton coach. Hopefully some of it made sense, and if it didn't, then...I agree with what Steve has written."

-Chris

"I too agree with Steve and Chris that we can take "skills competition" out of the SEAS Handbook. Most Play Days I've been to don't do them anymore. Plus, coaches who are gun-ho can add them if they want to.' 

-Erik

"I agree with Steve.  I feel children need to learn to both win and lose gracefully.  It's part of life and we seem to want to take it out of schools, leaving kids unprepared when it comes later.  I won at sports, I lost at sports.  I learned to be happy for the success of others, and to be successful myself with consideration for those who maybe weren't.

I've chatted with several of my coaching staff, as well as colleagues outside of school, and the comments have been unanimous: don't take score keeping out of the game.

My two cents :)"

-Ixchel

"Wait I ONLY said take it out if people weren’t going to do it. I think IT MUST BE in there and that the ultra-competitive coaches want it out or they use time as the issue when really it isn’t about time as much as about “they feel it is a waste of time” which I don’t believe it is. We always do it in the coed and we have prizes and make it a big deal. Kids love cheering for each other and the fun of going head to head in a good natured way against other kids from other schools.
 
I don’t think coaches will add it. If it wasn’t there it would be forgotten. We had a new team join us for volleyball and she said it was the first time they had done a skills competition and the kids loved it."
 
-Steve

"So, for my two cents, as I see it:

1. A number of members from the above list are unable to attend for various reasons, so, the discussion should be postponed. In the meantime, a strategy developed to get some more input from coaches of various sports from as many schools as possible and for Jas to collect some feedback from the Principals.

2. I do remember being part and organizer of the final four for basketball and for volleyball. Those days are long gone. Just before the turn of the century, we introduced the Playdays and this system, overall has worked well. Coaches have done amazing work in building interest, skills and love for various games in various schools. The Co-Ed option has been wonderful for those who wish to go that route. For others, we do have the Zone organization in place. Students, parents and coaches have responded well to the system and there has been a culture and tradition set. My question always is: For what problem is your current question a solution? For my part, the current system has done fine.


3. What we do should have some alignment  with high schools, whether it is throughout the high school years or at the grade 8 or 9 level; otherwise, my question remains, for what problem is that a solution?"

-Raminder

"Hi again,

 One correction, since Steve is adding in his corrections.

I, like many of you, have hosted Playdays for the last 13 years at various schools and have always had skills' contest before the semi final or the final game. Kids have enjoyed it and so have the coaches. Kids have cheered for other kids' mastery. 

We have six schools coming to Strawberry Hill this Saturday, and Phil and Byron at Westerman did this for five years, and, if you have time, come around and see the skills' contest around 11 AM. So, yes, the competitive field does it as well and for just as much fun. 

Now it adds to three cents, for what it is worth. 

Bye for now."

-Raminder

"To piggy-back on Raminder's point:

We have six schools coming to Strawberry Hill this Saturday, and Phil and Byron at Westerman did this for five years, and, if you have time, come around and see the skills' contest around 11 AM. So, yes, the competitive field does it as well and for just as much fun. 

...it was missed after Byron left.  I was VP there for the last two years it ran -- it was a fabulous day -- the skills competition was very well done and was looked forward to by the kids.  I think the issue for some is *maybe* not knowing how to set up a skills set.  Many of my coaches are hesitant to host and not always confident in their own abilities.  Maybe the conversation could include a proposal for a clinic specifically on skills competitions.

Now it adds to three cents, for what it is worth.  4 cents ;)"

-Ixchel

Hello all,
 
I like Raminder’s idea of waiting until the next meeting to discuss this topic. It gives us time to gather information from various sources including principals, teachers and students. My coaches and students were quick to say that they wanted to keep score. Many of the students play community sports and are use to the competitive side of sport. They have gone through try-outs and they know what winning and losing is about. Like Ixchel and Raminder have said earlier, winning and losing is part of the game and reality will hit them at some point. Would we doing them a disservice by not keeping score. SEAS makes available Boys, Girls, Boys B and Girls B as well as coed programs to help provide experiences for all our students. The Playdays system works well in my experience and have always had good feedback from parents."

-Jas

"Hello All!  I am continually impressed with the dedication, knowledge, insight, & passion you each bring. Thank you! 

Like most people here I believe kids need to learn how to win, lose, & do it gracefully.  To me sport has always been a big part of my life and I always believed it was important to have a winner & a loser in a game.  I like most people hated to lose but my feelings have shifted a little.  I still like to play to win but i also enjoy playing just because i like to play.  Keeping score is not a precursor for the enjoyment of the game.  I am just as happy in either scenario.

I like our Playday system with a variety of options available to schools.  I think you could add a layer where teams just come together, play, have skill challenges, etc.  We could have a competitive & non competitive running under same rules with the exception of score keeping.  It could be up to individual schools to decide which umbrella they wanted to fall under.  

I also believe there could be an option where schools could just play each other for fun.  I don't think this would be doing them a disservice.  Doing them a disservice would not be giving them the opportunity to play at all.  I believe there are schools out there that would love this option.  How many?  I am not sure.  They can coach their kids & have fun learning the game without scoring.  I don't think keeping score is necessary to enjoy the game or improve your understanding of the game or your skills in the game.  I do think both could have their place.  

Someone just handed me a penny for my thoughts. :). 

Thank you for everyone for their input thus far... it really helped me shape my perspective."

-Hugh

Hi Everyone,

So I had resisted responding to Steve initially hoping to engage in lively conversation at the meeting. However, since there will be some not able to attend, we can engage in an on-line discussion and this might be a good one to post on the SEAS blog to engage further discussion. This can be an ongoing discussion at our meetings as well as this isn't a one-off discussion.

First off, I have the greatest respect for the SEAS executive and coordinators. The vision we have developed and opportunities we provide our students is unparalleled in the province. What I'm asking us to consider is OUR role in the long term development of an athlete (I believe every one is an athlete as life is an athletic endeavor!). According to Dr Stephen Norris, Director of Sport Physiology & Strategic Planning at the Canadian Sport Centre Calgary, there are no 10 year old champions, and champions are not created between the ages of 9-18. We shouldn't be looking at competitive results as the metric for success because of the 48 month variability of boys/girls @ peak height velocity attainment (physical maturity). They studied 1500 Olympians from Germany because of their historical success in Olympics and found that their athletes did not specialize in sport until at least age 15. Look at what we do right now with clubs, especially at the high school level, but also in community sport.

Competition is a critical issue in all sports, especially team sports. The issue is that the 'system' of competition was never properly designed; it simply 'evolved' on an improvised basis without consideration for the sport science of athlete development. One of the most common problems is that adult competition schedules as well as training progressions and testing procedures are often superimposed on children/young athletes. We should be looking at skill development, especially the fundamental movement skills and slowly infusing competition. The developmentally appropriate formula would be 70% skill development and practice and 30% competition.

While I agree that winning and losing is a part of life, I don't believe that we need to introduce the hard reality of life between the ages of 9-12. The kids don't really care if they win or lose; it's the adults that do. Coaches often fell pressured to win and the results are antithetical to the factors behind developing life-long participation in sport and physical activity. Who benefits when a team completely dominates another team? What's the lesson/message we're sending? For competition to be valid, the end result needs to be in doubt otherwise, there is NO competition. If the outcome is a forgone conclusion you have no valid competition.

How many of you are familiar with the Canada's Long Term Athlete Development Model LTAD? This home grown research model has been internationally accepted and sport has changed in their countries because of the sport science focus on athlete development. In fact, Canada has fallen behind in the adoption of it's own model because of the "that's the way we've always done it!" attitude. Change is an uncomfortable and often messy process.

If you get a chance, go through this very informative site which houses the LTAD:
http://www.canadiansportforlife.ca

To be continued…I'm sure…..

-Glenn